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Academic Redshirting: should you hold your kid back?

Published 02.08.2008 | Permanent Link | Comments (32)

I've been thinking about the practice of redshirting: postponing your child's entrance into kindergarten to give him or her an academic or social edge. I'm not considering it for my son, mind you: we were spared that decision, because Henry just missed the cut-off date in New Jersey; we're paying for another year of preschool and that's why we can't afford food or socks. I'm thinking about it because whenever I complain about all this tuition we're forced to pay and all the great socks we're missing out on, everyone congratulates me—because giving your child an extra year—especially if your child is a boy child—is seen as the smartest way to go. Usually when people tell me it's for the best, boys need that extra year, I like to respond by shouting, YOU CALLING MY BOY AN IDIOT? And I wonder why people run from me at the playground.

Now, If we had stayed in Brooklyn, he would have been well within the cut-off date and he would have attended kindergarten. Am I disappointed that he had an extra year of preschool? A little. Financially, I'm disappointed, of course. But also I'm not sure the extra year has done him a service. He's expressed a great deal of impatience with preschool. It is, according to Henry, a baby school with baby activities. For the first time, he doesn't want to go to school because it's boring. I was excited for him to be the oldest-- he was the youngest for two years in preschool, and I watched the older kids leaving him out of their games and it broke my heart—but he doesn't actually get that much out of it. The thrill of having all the younger kids look up to him has worn off, and now he just thinks they're, well, boring. (Sorry for being redundant, but it's a word I hear all too frequently.)

On the other hand, I wonder whether the extra year will pay off in the long run. I must admit that I'm glad Henry won't be the smallest boy in the class when he enters public school. I mean, he'll be able to handle his switchblade so much better next year. (Ha! Heeerrgh. Ahem.)

Let's face it, kindergarten isn't what it was when we were youngsters. Here's what I remember from kindergarten: we ate paste while the teacher wasn't looking. I got into trouble for blowing bubbles in my milk. We played follow the leader, and I got distracted and wandered off. Is it any wonder I almost failed? My kindergarten report card is still a topic of amusement in my family. Knows full name and number? NOPE. Can tie shoes? NUH-UH. Follows directions? ALMOST NEVER. Calls the teacher Mommy? WHY, SURE! If kindergarten were still like that, hell, Henry could have entered at age 3 and blown my record right out of the water.

But these days the children are expected to learn, you know, things. They're learning how to read and write, they're getting started on foreign languages, they're expected to sit at desks, and I'm fairly certain that they learn how to drive. Henry's getting an extra year of running around, and given his energy level, that's a good thing. I'm especially glad we switched him to a preschool that's a little more sedate and rigid (and, well, boring) than his last one, which was an action-figure-strewn free-for-all. Had we not had this extra year, kindergarten might have come as a terrible shock. What do you mean, there are no Power Rangers here? What circle of hell have I descended to?

So yeah, the extra year might do him good. And I know plenty of parents whose kids just made the cut-off date, but were smaller statured or shy or just needed more time to mature, and in that case waiting does make more sense. But it's when parents use redshirting as some kind of strategic move for their child's future greatness that I start to wonder where they're coming from. Your kid was ready, but you want him to be readier? Or you just want him to win? Why don't you wait four years? Five? THEN he'll have the real advantage. He'll kick those five-year-olds to the curb! Literally!

And according to some experts, leaving your kid behind a year doesn't put them at a long-term advantage. Beth Graue, a professor in the UW-Madison Department of Curriculum and Instruction, says that the advantages the older children enjoy disappear after a couple of years. "Meanwhile, 'redshirts' have higher-than-expected placement in special education and more social, emotional, and disciplinary problems." In other words, they become the understimulated, oversized bullies.

Then there are the larger ramifications, which are summed up neatly on this site. First of all, people who hold their children back are more like to be well-off. What does that mean for the poorer families, who can't afford not to send their kids to public school for an entire year? It means that children who are already at risk face a further disadvantage. Also, the older the children entering kindergarten become, the more the curriculum will alter to serve them, leaving five-year-olds in the dust. The long-term result: "The kindergarten program will become developmentally inappropriate for the very young children it is meant to serve."

But then, it's hard to factor in what's good for Society when your child's well-being is at stake. So what did you do think? Do you leave your kid back, or throw him in when the district says he's ready?

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Comments (32):

Mom to 1, 1 on the way said:

I have a little girl who was born in April, so will be on the young side. I am pregnant, due in September, who will be on the old side. I'm not worried about either of them. They'll catch up. As you pointed out, there are benefits and drawbacks to both.

Posted on February 8, 2008 13:52

Slim said:

Holy moly, how did a child with an April birthday become "on the old side"? What is the cutoff where you are? Here, it's September 30.
My kids have summer birthdays, and they're going on time. As in, at 5. Our school district, bless its heart, believes that it is the school's job to deal with the kids who appear in kindergarten, and not the parents' job to see that they are prepared (to some magical level) for kindergarten. Our school district doesn't even expect all kids entering first grade to be reading. Which -- listen up, all you annoying standardized test worshippers -- is a strong indication that our school district actually has a clue about what is developmentally appropriate.
Also, I would like to scream every time someone talks about how it's usually a good idea to hold boys back. Maybe more boys than girls need to be held back, but for the most part, the vast majority of kids are ready to start school at 5, assuming the school understands what five-year-olds can reasonably be expected to do. And I think schools are more likely to remember that if a few people as possible redshirt their kids.

Posted on February 8, 2008 14:31

Sarah said:

I'm currently at university and most of my friends were at the top of their class in high school. Coincidentally, most of my friends (including myself) were the youngest in the grade. Now we are all girls and it's not an exact sample, but I say put them in when they seem ready and don't worry about age(whether they will be older or younger).

Posted on February 8, 2008 14:51

Katherine said:

My November misses the cutoff. I spent the last year researching every way I could find to get her a chance to start K at 4y9m. It's not going to happen and I think that will be fine. The challenge was finding a program for that interim year to keep the momentum up (she's in full time pre-K and has been since 3). I worried that she would be older and bigger (she's a tall glass of water) and "readier" but - I took a look - with all the kids being redshirted - she'll be among a group of older students.

I will be interested to see how I feel when my younger - an August - gets close. I already find myself thinking she's not as advanced as her sister was . . .. I'd be an interesting study.

Posted on February 8, 2008 14:57

Arwen said:

Thanks for presenting a balanced consideration of this issue. It seems to me that a lot of people think red-shirting is a no-brainer, because why wouldn't you want to give your child a better chance to Succeed? But why should it be a given that being older means being more likely to succeed? It's clearly not, given the understimulated, oversized bullies.

Posted on February 8, 2008 15:17

Lisa said:

Here where I live, it's almost always boys who are held back or started late, but not for the reasons you cited.

#1 Reason? Athletics.

We have friends who are holding their 5th grader back this year so that he will have a better chance to excel at athletics, and are secretive about it at all. I was flabbergasted. Not only does he not have a late birthday, he is also not a small kid who might benefit from a year of maturity. He's a good head taller and 30 pounds heavier than my 5th grader.

I hope he does well in sports. Mainly to make up for the stigma of being "held back" in the 5th grade. (And there is one, at least here.)

Posted on February 8, 2008 15:33

SuburbanCorrespondent said:

This issue really depends on the child. And the school system and its expectations for kindergarteners. So there is no one-size-fits-all answer available. In general, however, 5-year-old girls make 5-year-old boys look like Cro-Magnons. They are so far ahead socially, it's a joke. When I was growing up, we had a pre-first grade where they put all the kids who had finished kindergarten but weren't ready for first grade. And guess what? Every single one of the students in pre-first was a boy. Obnoxious boys, who would chase us around the playground and pull our hair. Not like the suave first-grade boys who would make nice so we would let them copy our spelling paper.

So perhaps it would be best if there were different, or more flexible cut-offs for boys than for girls. Who knows? Our educational system is just that, a system, and can't get everything exactly right for each individual. The parents' job is to know their child and to know their school, so they can tell where their child fits best.

Posted on February 8, 2008 15:47

Slim said:

"In general, however, 5-year-old girls make 5-year-old boys look like Cro-Magnons."

See, this is what makes me crazy. And I suspect most people who believe it are actually illustrating the principle (can't remember what it's called, or even if it has a name, frankly) that we notice and remember data that back up our assumptions and gloss over the information that doesn't.

And while I don't care whether an individual parent chooses to believe this about the general population, I think the attitude in general tends to further the trend toward redshirting.

Yes! My boys are exemplars of perfect, non-gender-specific behavior, thanks to my flawless parenting skills. But I know plenty of mortal boys who can behave just fine.

Posted on February 8, 2008 16:32

Mel said:

Like you, the choice is made for us virtue of a Sept. 1 cutoff & an early October birthday. I've been fretting about my son waiting the extra year, mostly because of one of the points you touched on - that the lack of stimulation will trigger the "class clown" (aka troublemaker) potential that exists in my darling boy. Geez, I know what he is capable of after fifteen minutes of boredom, let alone an entire school day!

Posted on February 8, 2008 16:52

Johnna said:

I threw my first son in when the system said to. He's one of the young ones because of an April birthday, but he's very smart (of course!) and one of the most well behaved (obviously!). He's thriving and learning and not "bored." My second son will be one of the oldest due to a November birthday. I'm not concerned about that either. Kid's are pretty capable of going with the flow and adjusting, I believe.
I enjoyed your interesting post. I feel lucky to be in Georgia where there is state funded public Pre-Kindergarden!

Posted on February 8, 2008 17:11

braine said:

Schmedshirting. I bet the "it's boring" thing is the result of Henry's age and the intelligence he's picked up from his alpha parents, and not so much about the school environment. Our son was born a couple of weeks after Henry, but we're in New York so he's in kindergarten. It's Montessori, taught in the same room where he spent pre-school, only now he gets to do all the Big Kid activities: Japanese and Spanish, reading, writing, working with the "bionomial chain" and the "trinomial cube" (I DON'T KNOW), and creating a legion of hydrogen-powered droids to perform simple farming tasks. He's also the tallest one in his class.

It's somewhat unstructured and child-readiness-based, and I'm pretty sure he's stimulated there, but most mornings he doesn't want to go, because it's boooooring.

In short, Henry will doubtless kick scholarly (and, state-mandated-"redshirt" bonus, PHYSICAL) ass next year and thereafter (and would have either way).

Posted on February 8, 2008 17:28

msg said:

luckily my march born boy is off the charts in the growth department so he actually doesn't feel like the runt of the class even though he is the youngest...unfortunately his brother was born in November and he will be a head taller than everyone and (because he is a genius of course) i have a feeling he will be coming back with a whole lot of "I had a borrrrrring day mom" but I guess he will at least be an athelete! the cutoff date is silly unfortunately it is also hard to imagine placing kids dependent on their individual needs...they are all unique aren't they?

Posted on February 8, 2008 19:55

Amy said:

I faced this dilemma 3 years ago when my son was 5. He has a July birthday and is small and although academically ready, he was a bit immature. We elected that it would be best to wait another year. I don't regret it. He's thriving in 1st grade b`ut far from being bored. We live in a pretty competitive school district (academically) so that was a factor as well. Now, we are faced with the same decision for our daughter who will be 5 in May. Her situation is a little less clear-cut. I have enrolled her in preschool for 4 days a week next year & will also register her for kindergarten and make my decision in the spring, after our conference with her preschool teacher. From my own personal experience, I was the youngest in my grade, starting kindy at 4. While I was academically above average throughout all my years at school, I was immature. That immaturity caught up with me in the middle school years. I was socially awkward and that became a distraction for me academically. So, some of my decision has to do with my own personal baggage, I suppose. However, as my son's kindergarten teacher told me, she's never had a parent tell her they regretted waiting. In the end, I think you have to make the decision that is best for your child and it takes a bit of gut-instinct weighed-in with the factual variables to make that decision.

Posted on February 8, 2008 20:26

Jenn @ Juggling Life said:

I live in California, which has an extremely late cut-off date, December 5. My youngest daughter's b-day is mid-November, so she started at 4. She's now 13 and it was absolutely the right decision to start her at 4.

My comment is on the "graying" of kindergarten. I'd have to say that in first grade, when 13 of the 20 kids in the class were more than a year older than her (due to redshirting), my daughter did feel she was not as "smart" as the rest of the class. Well, duh, they should have been in 2nd grade! Luckily, we got past that and she's a straight-A honor student in 8th grade (natch).

Parents should make the decision they know in their hearts is right about when to start their kids, but doing it for competitive reasons hurts everybody.

Posted on February 8, 2008 21:35

Frogdancer said:

I don't believe holding kids back a year has any short term benefit. However, speaking as a secondary teacher (and mother of 4 boys, two of which have been held back) the benefits once they hit adolescence are marked.

Girls far outstrip the boys in early adolescence, and it takes the boys years to catch up. The expectations to sit still, focus and be academically astute is often really hard for the junior levels to maintain. The extra year of maturity that the held back boys have is very noticeable. I wish I'd held back all four of mine.

Posted on February 8, 2008 22:38

Andi said:

Well, as a om who took a techer comendation about holding my son back; I can tel you i as ot helpful in he long run. My on is now 18 and a junior in high shool. He was already an older pre-schooler. He was havig a diffucult time withhis letters. So they assumed he neeed more time. It turned out he was dysleic. After doing lots of tutoring wth specilist he was great with ome challenges but geat academicly. Soial stuff has been much harder. His friends are far more inmature than he is. Fortunatly, he has started a program in our local high school to "Go at your own pace".He will graduate this May. One year ahead of schedule. We are on our way to visit a college next week. Sometimes learning differences hold back kids that just need temporary assitence. Every kid is different. I just wish schools saw it that way more often.

Posted on February 9, 2008 00:59

Marnie said:

Both my husband and his younger brother were born in mid-August in a school district with a September cut-off. My MIL put them both in when they were "supposed" to go, at 5, and so both were the very youngest in the class.

My BIL had horrible experiences all the way thru HS as the youngest, and positively insisted and made his wife plan that their kids be born in the winter (I kid you not) so they'd be among the oldest.

My husband remembers only positive things about school, and thinks his brother is nuts.

It's all in whether they're ready or not.

My DD is in 1st grade, and even now there's still a distinct difference *in general* between the boys and girls at this age. The boys - not all of them, but most of them - are simply not as able and willing to sit still, listen, focus. There are girls in this category, too, but percentage-wise, not as many.

A teacher suggested that our daughter should test to see if she should skip a grade. DH and I talked about it ever so briefly and agreed, "no way." She may do fine academically and socially now, but neither of us could bear the thought of her being 13 in high school and dating an 18-yo senior. Or, being 14 and riding with her 16-yo friends who just got drivers' licenses. Or heading to college before she could even vote.

Parents and current teachers have a much better idea of whether the kids are ready or not. Go with your gut.

Posted on February 9, 2008 21:53

janny226 said:

With an early-September birthday, DuckyBoy is one of the semi-younger ones thanks to NYC's calendar-year cutoff dates. But there are at least 3 other birthdays later than his in his class, so it's a decent mix. He is delayed socially, and that is a certifiable fact, so for him I'm glad he is one of the younger kids so he has better role models, instead of being the older kid of the group.

I know he was bored academically in his 2nd year of preschool last year, but that was more a factor of not being able to figure out a better placement than it was him being ready for K a year early, which he was not.

Posted on February 11, 2008 10:34

Kylie said:

I think you make a pretty strong case here. Personally, I was almost held back, but pushed into Kindergarten on time, even though I was behind other children. I ended up doing quite well, academically, in the end. I think it's more of a question of how kid's desires form, than their actually abilities. They have to want too learn. Took me a long time to get there, but I made it!

Posted on February 11, 2008 18:00

Cynthia Samuels said:

I think the theory comes from the idea that boys are developmentally "slower" than girls, and that the extra year helps them to keep up with expectations. It was good for my second son, because he was the youngest at home and got to be the oldest at school, and because he went to an academically-oriented preschool. I can tell you though that a friend's child, older than everyone all through high school, found it tough, embarrassing and hard in weird ways. He had the only driver's license etc and was expected to "put out" when kids wanted rides and things like that. So I guess I don't have an answer - it, as everything else, seems to depend most on the child. Big surprise.

Posted on February 13, 2008 13:07

Sar said:

I think that sometimes people forget that there can be an advantage to being young. I skipped a couple grades in high school, started at an early college, and transferred to a mainstream college as an 18 year old junior. It kept me stimulated and motivated because I felt I needed to prove I could compete with the older students. I developed a great group of mostly male friends who were very protective of me, and when it came time to apply to graduate school I was accepted into several elite programs, in no small part (I'm convinced) because my age and weird mix of experience made me stand out...you know, 'she's young, she must be smart!' Also keep in mind that I was probably in the top 10% in high school, but I got the occasional B and was never mistaken for a genius or future valedictorian. But, so long as you are independent, perhaps fiercely so, being young in school can have many advantages.

Posted on February 14, 2008 16:42

Sar said:

Forgot to say that I'm also a summer baby so I was always a leetle younger to begin with and apparently didn't have problems because of it. But the whole dropping out of high school, starting college at 16? That was a decision that I was obviously an active participant in, so different from 'redshirting'

Posted on February 14, 2008 16:50

LuLuBoyer said:

I haven't taken time to read all of the comments yet, but we have hit a very real problem with the decision to hold our son back, now that he is in his senior year.
He seemed young emotionally, and we never thought again about our decision once it was made (proof is was the right one).
He's 18 now and I just asked him how it felt to him. He said that he never felt "older" in age, only in emotion. Also, he never seemed older in appearance. Some of his grade level were as much as two years apart from the others, but he felt they all sort of mixed in together.
Here is the problem that came up in his senior year: He was 18. A good kid, never in trouble, but nevertheless, not as interested in school as his compost pile. Guess what? Having your teachers like you doesn't cut it. This year we were told by the counselors that if he didn't improve they would THROW him OUT because he is now 18! 18 and only five months to go and they told him "tough luck". This, even though he is not failing in every class.
He never tried to say that it wasn't his fault for not trying harder. If it's a scare tactic, it's working. But I would rather he graduates with a solid D-grade report card than be thrown out to (hopefully) start again in adult school. Don't know the outcome yet; he is due to graduate in June if he can get his grades up (and yes he passed his California exit exam last year).

Posted on February 15, 2008 13:02

Kristen said:

Got to the party late, but here goes.

My older son was placed in Kindergarten in January 2007. He NEEDED to be there. His birthday is the day after Christmas, and the cut off date in CA is 12/05. I know this child. If I had kept him in preschool where all he was doing was review of what he knew, there would have been hell to pay in Kindergarten. He would have been bored and acted out (which was already happening in preschool) which would have labeled him a "troublemaker". In fact, when his teacher first got him (she had had his older brother two years prior, and that child is severely behind - we're talking he's still at a late Kindergarten/early 1st grade level now) she warned me that if she didn't feel he was ready to move on at the end of the year, he would be repeating Kindergarten. I agreed. She spoke to me a month later at parent-teacher conferences and stated that she emphatically agreed with my decision to place him in Kindergarten halfway through the year.

I was actually speaking with the Resource teacher (who has my oldest stepson about half the day) about Nick the other day. She said that there had been grumbling about placing him in Kindergarten midyear. She had been telling everyone, "This is not a mother that would do this indiscriminately. If she feels that he needs to be put in Kindergarten, then he needs to." She said that the grumbling had stopped by the end of his first day.

I was warned that I should keep him back "because boys mature slower" and that I would be hurting him in the long run. He will always be the youngest kid in his class (so was I because I was supremely advanced and had to be moved up a year...) but he is doing work that is commiserate with his grade. He has no problems academically or with his maturity. I feel that I made the correct decision for this child.

My younger son has a late June birthday. I don't have to worry about placing him. He'll go in when he is 5.

Posted on February 15, 2008 14:20

BlackOrchid said:

Just wanted to pipe in to say that, like Sar, I started school at 4 (November birthday) and then skipped a grade in elementary, so I began college early as well. Never had a problem, would have been completely and utterly bored if I hadn't done these things. As it was I was pretty bored most of the time!

I'm sick of the redshirting around here (and most teachers I ask agree with me). Not to mention the pressure other moms (who have redshirted or are planning to) keep putting on ME to hold my July-born daughter back next year. It seems when some people make a decision, others not following their lead is somehow a problem for them. Also they seem to think that those of us who don't redshirt will "make school more boring" for their older kids.

If it weren't for what's happening to the curriculum and "classroom mix" due to redshirting, I wouldn't care at all about it. But things are really getting out of hand in my ultra-competitive SE PA suburb.

Too much school - too many years of it - as it is. Redshirting just adds more mind-deadening years on!

Posted on February 15, 2008 16:01

Belle said:

My son's birthday is September 21st. the cut off date for our district was September 30, so he made the cutoff. I could not afford the extra year of day care so we made the decision to send him to Kindergarten. He was 4 when he started. We had alot of trouble the first year. The teacher even recommended he wait another year. But I told her I couldn't afford it. He got kicked out of his after school day care because of his hyperactivity and we had to switch schools because I could not find other day care that would pick him up from school.

Now he is in 2nd grade. He does take medication for his ADHD and goes to a special school for children with ADHD or Aspergers. But academically he is actually at about a 3rd grade level. His teacher actually gives him 3rd grade work to keep him occupied. So if he would have been held back he would have been bored out of his mind. I am glad that I made the decision to not hold him back another year.

Posted on February 19, 2008 12:18

Andrea said:

If school curriculum were geared toward ability and not age this would not be an issue.

Posted on February 19, 2008 13:36

skg said:

Both of my kids miss our state's deadline by five days. Five days! After talking to his teacher and the director of his preschool, I've decided to let him take the test that will determine if he is ready (or not) for kindergarten. This is a decision that has kept me up many a night. I hope I'm doing the right thing. I've reserved a spot for him at his preschool for the fall just in case. His teacher thinks he's ready and will do fine but yikes! I guess I won't know the outcome until he's 30 and either living in my basement or fuctioning in the big, bad world. Oh, and I get to revisit this topic in exactly three years with his sister!

Posted on February 20, 2008 14:29

Amanda said:

My mom is a preschool and pre-K teacher here at a local Catholic school.

If a child has a birthday that is in that tricky cut off area AND the child is not developing or at the developmental stage where he or she should be for that age, she and the other teachers will recommend another year of preschool or, if applicable, that the child attend pre-K.

They don't force it on the parents but do make a strong case for the child's social and educational development. Hearing her talk so passionately about it has led me to agree with her. At this point the kids are so young, it won't hurt to give them that extra year which should really help in the long run.

And hey, it's not as bad as the boy I knew in junior high who had parents that held him back in the 8th grade (!) so that he would have an edge his freshman year on the soccer team.

Posted on February 21, 2008 11:42

kym b said:

Wow, I guess I've never even thought that this happened. I have an October birthday and started K when I was 4. My 1st is April and 2nd is February so there were no questions about when they would start. My 3rd is a late September birthday and I have never even thought of "redshirting' her. She will start when she is 4 and turn 5 about a month after school starts. She will be fine, she is a smart little cookie and 2 1/2 and will be more than ready by then.

Kids born in the summer not going when they are 5? Crazy talk.

Posted on February 23, 2008 21:42

Shannon said:

My son will be 5 on 7/24 with a Kindergarten cutoff of 7/31 so he will be a new 5. He attended PreK this past year. He was placed in a Title 1 PreK program due to his delays from prematurity. In February, we were told to not even consider advancing him but two months later, his lightbulb turned on and he mastered all areas and scored above and beyond their Kindergarten expectations.

And I'm supposed to be comfortable placing my baby on a huge bus with older kids!

As it turns out, the elementary has a summer school program and children entering Kindergarten can attend for free. Having 3 older children, we already know a majority of the teachers. I'm thrilled that he will have this summer advantage to become accustomed to the school, its routine and expectations (behaviorial) and become familiar with his teacher for next year.

Throughout our decision making, there was always the talk of "redshirting" him. I'd rather hold a child back in Kindergarten so that he's at least given the chance to shine or to even TRY. This is a boy who looks forward to school and is smart as a whip. His fine motor skills are still delayed but we still have the summer to work on them.

If he doesn't catch up through the year, we can always try again. But to hold him back to hold an advantage over other children? It doesn't make sense to me. To hold him back because he's not ready academically? THAT'S the INTELLIGENT choice.

Posted on May 23, 2008 17:32

maine626 said:

I have twins - boy/girl, with a b-days in Nov. We just had our K screening day and they said the kids would be fine (our cutoff is Dec 31). BUT the pre-school teacher said they would benefit with an extra year going to a pre-K program. We're leaning towards sending them and if they need an extra year, we'll have them repeat K. But the decision to send them or not to send them, sends me over the edge. Do you send them, do you not send them? They could definately benefit an extra year of maturity but when i see them around kids they would go to school with next year - i'm thinking - no way, our kids would be so much older than them. i want them to challenged all the way around. i would never hold my kids because i want the biggest and the best. i just want to do what's best for them. My head is spinning!!

Posted on June 3, 2008 06:14

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